Thread:
Preconception versus what is shown in week one
Post:
Preconception versus what is shown in week one
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
May 22, 2022 12:06 PM
Edited Date:
May 23, 2022 11:53 AM
Status:
Published
My preconception was that the Vikings were exaggerated, stereotypical accounts of criminals and that Scandinavians were polite people in general. In the text book's chapter one, the Hamburg diocese said that we the Saxony "lose our minds admiring them" was my preconception. I learned from Sociology 101 that romanticizing a people sometimes is a way of containment and subjugation of a people, for example, romanticizing some continent as the pristine continent of human origin where the gene pool is to be protected and not allow the gene pool to be drained or flow out, which would fit the containment definition.
I am happy to learn from the Lay Of Rig poem that the Viking myths are more complicated than that. The historical social hierarchy has a multitude of dimensions. For example, it can be viewed as intertwined with the beauty hierarchy. The Jarl level is depicted with the strength of 8 humans in one person, leaving readers to imagine the muscle size. It has a purpose, it is a movement, even a moving target from the predation of romanticization. The poem is the embodiment of the Norse spirit in my mind.
I am shocked by the crude wordings in the poem that are offensive and actually show the originality of it. It is raw and inconspicuous at the same time. It catches me off guard. In the introduction chapter of The Viking Age, it warns that some offensive views can be derived from the old texts. And the offenses come really fast.
But, knowing the truth is better than living in the dark. When some material is obscured to the general public, the material is likely important.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
Beauty is NOT a curse in Egil's saga, or, is it?
Post:
Beauty is NOT a curse in Egil's saga, or, is it?
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
May 21, 2022 1:29 PM
Edited Date:
May 23, 2022 1:09 AM
Status:
Published
Norse mythology is known to utilize riddles in plots. In the first half of Egil's saga, beauty and death appear as a theme in the lives of Hrafnista, Trondheim, and Halogaland regions.
Thorolf's mother and Thorolf himself are said to be of Nordic beauty. Thorolf is strong with charming facial features, and Salbjorg has very fair skin.
But Kveld-Ulf's dialog with his son Thorolf hinted at impending death when he said "I think that we’ll all end up dead because of that king.”
In king Harald's own words, "appearance" is explicitly said to warrant inquiry when he said “as long as I find that Thorolf has the manly qualities his brave appearance suggests.”
Given the usual story telling morals, one can be tempted to solve the riddle of the king's words as a tyrant terrorizing any subject with charisma as a challenge to his power, and physical beauty is the most easily identifiable threat. But multiple events, including a banquet, show that the king is a very reasonable man when he "became merry" and "the king let the matter rest” after being convinced by the Oliv Snubnose to give Kveld-Ulf’s family half a year to meet the king. The king earns his power, at least, in part, by hard work and wits, not by being a savage oppressor.
However, the undercurrent of beauty and death still permeates as the story unfolds leading to the battle where Thorolf's best friend Bard dies while the best-looking character Thorolf survives and thrives.
It appears that, by the end of first half of Egil's saga, the riddle can be half solved, meaning that beauty is significant in Nordic life, yet it is a double edged sword. The many cards at hand, including the card of beauty, however, requires conning wits and stamina to decipher and play.
Vafthudnir
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Thread:
Sigurd is the hardest to be mapped to a historical figure
Post:
Sigurd is the hardest to be mapped to a historical figure
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
May 29, 2022 11:58 PM
Edited Date:
May 30, 2022 1:56 AM
Status:
Published
Volsung saga is generally regarded as a 2-part saga, first in the wilderness, second in the Roman regions albeit post fall of Rome. In the second half of Volsung saga, the key characters are ascertained to be associated with historical figures in the Introduction chapter to The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock.. But, Sigurd is deemed very difficult to be associated with any particular historical figure.
It is possible that the writing of the source poetic Edda and the Volsung saga were motivated by Icelandic writers' pride and ego not to be deciphered and associated with continental Eurasia history. Sigurd was implicated by Snorri Sturluson to be related to Norwegian royal family by Sigurd's daughter Swanhild. If the writings were commissioned by the royal family to promote the image of the royal family, the job was a success in distinguishing the royal family, meaning that Sigurd's name could not be tarnished by historical interpretation of future generations of any associated figure - because there is no such association.
But, again, the actual motives of the source Edda writing group and the unknown writer of Volsung may never be uncovered. Lost evidence can be lost forever.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
"Gift" from the royals
Post:
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
May 28, 2022 12:46 PM
Edited Date:
May 30, 2022 1:44 AM
Status:
Published
I have been trying to come up with a layman's theory as to why the writer wrote the Volsung saga in the first place.
I thought I found a simple answer when I read this week's required reading material "Introduction" to The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock.
In page 15, it hinted at the word "gift" purportedly from the royal family of Norway. But it didn't make sense to have monetary gain from Ragnar's family of the 800s for the writer of Volsung of the 1200s.
So, page 15's "gift inspired the poem" was more of a figurative speech than actual goods of monetary values.
The "Introduction" mentioned Rome 3 times, and it occurred to me that the Volsung stories of the purported 5th century coincided with the fall of Rome of the 5th century.
So, the clues of the motive for the writing of the Volsung/Ragnar series could be in the chaos of the post-Rome geopolitics.
But, the motive itself may never be known. Lost evidence can be lost forever.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
Tension Between Marriage and Family
Post:
RE: Tension Between Marriage and Family
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
May 29, 2022 2:02 AM
Edited Date:
May 30, 2022 12:26 AM
Status:
Published
Hi Sam and Melissa, I like this thread's discussion. :)
My understanding is that the theme of saving siblings over one's own children culminated in Gudrun's mother telling Gudrun "do according to our bidding", meaning fighting for mother/father side's members/siblings instead of husband side's members/children, in chapter 33.
"Bidding" means that marriage and child birthing are auction-style business-political transactions. "Our" refers to the shared possessions between Gudrun's mother/father and Grudrun, which are Gudrun's siblings.
The historical context of the migration of the 5th century was that Hun(Atli, Gudrun's second husband) was from central Eurasia, who spoke a language very different from Gudrun's Burgundian(German-like) family.
Hun Atli and Gudrun's children, raised in Hun country, might not be able to speak Gudrun's language much. Gudrun's children's facial features might resemble Huns more than Germans, so her own children might look like foreigners while her brothers' children looked a lot more like herself.
I can imagine the difficulties Gudrun endured when her nephews and nieces spoke the same language and had the same skin as her, while her own children couldn't hold a conversation with her, and her own children looked and behaved as foreigners.
I can imagine a world where everyone lived as a foreigner, as undocumented immigrant, and no citizenship paper was granted to anyone because federal government Rome had fallen in the 5th century, leaving Burgundy region citizens to be conquered by the next strongest tribe of the year.
My understanding is that Scandinavians didn't need to have a very different tradition/culture from modern 21st century industrial people for disasters/killing children to happen when the society had broken down.
I know that Signy and her husband were both Scandinavians when murder-own-children happened in the first half of the saga, but the story built up from an non-built society, and later more ethnicities were mixed in for dramatic effect.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
The Punishment For Bait-Switch On Odin Is Bait-Switch On Your Lover
Post:
The Punishment For Bait-Switch On Odin Is Bait-Switch On Your Lover
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 5, 2022 11:59 PM
Status:
Published
It has just occurred to me 3 minutes before taking my quizz that Brynhild's story plot is excellent. Great work, Edda writers!
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Thread:
Traveling sword mirrored by current events
Post:
Take Two: Same Stage, Similar Actors, Complete Different Scripts
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 5, 2022 11:59 PM
Status:
Published
Take Two: Same Stage, Similar Actors, Complete Different Scripts
Age of Vikings of the 11th century appears to be re-enacted by Russian forces on the shore of Black Sea in 2022.
Vikings embedded in Rus forces across Black Sea to Constantinople-Istanbul were recruited in the Varangian regiment for Eastern Roman/Byzantine Emperor Alexius I.
The Viking sword Hneitir uncovered in the regiment in Constantinople-Istanbul was handed over to emperor Alexius in army camp under his control.
The Viking forces left rune stone marks of Sigurd in Kiev along the way to Black Sea as reported in the Introduction chapter of The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock, page 6.
Turkey president Erdogan, arranging meetings in Istanbul in 2022, is allying with Russia to support Islamic expansion. Swords have been replaced by missiles in modern warfares, and the S400 defense missiles have been handed over to Istanbul.
Russian forces left artillery marks in Kiev in March 2022 along the way to Black Sea.
Turkey's economy has been in trouble for the past 5 years with something like 150% year-to-year inflation on commodity goods, subjugating the commoners that migrate from interior of Turkey toward Istanbul toward the west.
But president Erdogan, in Istanbul, is expanding Islam economic teachings in Istanbul toward the west, worsening the economy in the process.
It is often said that those whose who can't learn from history are bound to repeat history. Dr. Einstein said that doing the same thing while expecting different result is the definition of insanity.
But the problem here is that history's lesson is very hard to extract and apply. Scandinavians changed a lot since the middle ages. The European Union face the biggest problem of extreme right-wing ideology. The traveling of ideas is what is at stake. The learning/sharing of ideas is what most modern people, including Scandinavians, strive for.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
Recipe for the Perfect Viking
Post:
RE: Recipe for the Perfect Viking
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 5, 2022 1:27 PM
Edited Date:
June 5, 2022 11:20 PM
Status:
Published
Vikings can be considered regiments with ranking hierarchy and chain of commands. For a full package of a good warrior, I see the old texts hint at a few different angles to look at the problem.
For logistics, warrior officers need to be good organizers to arrange transportation and camping for war conscription.
- "King Harald called up a full levy throughout Norway and, when spring came, a large army assembled." , circa 1060[1], may be assumed to require local horse drawn transportation to carry foot soldiers. Foot soldiers fight on their feet in the battle, but transportation likely still needs horses. The distance from Oslo to Trondheim is about 300 miles by modern highway, and is likely more than 400 miles by old roads. The full levy may call for soldiers farther than 500 miles.
- Regional Earl Rognvald Kali(high ranking warrior) saying "I know nine arts" [2] may include arithmetics as art to calculate taxi fee compensations to neighboring regional Earls for transporting the foot soldiers for the war conscription. Most soldiers may not be carried with a military chariot from their very home directly to Trondheim(medieval Nidaros) where the 1060 flagship is built.
For command hierarchy, warriors need to be good at mind reading and mind control while complying with laws
- Below the rank of Earl are ranks of "Champions" and "Standards"[6].
- "The king laid an arrow to his bow and aimed at Ulf." [3] refers to dealing with insubordination in the episode of Earl Eirik's coup that leads to king Olaf's downfall. Ulf is not an enemy soldier. Ulf is a warrior under Olaf Tryggvason's command. Dealing with ranking both upward and downward can be a daily task by itself. Chapter 4 mentions "law court" 4 times for civilian life, and military life may also have complex laws.
- Modern film "A Few Good Men" legal drama is one example where mind control goes out of the bounds of military laws.
For gore and brutality in literature, Snorri Sturluson was a diplomat who made promotional media materials between countries that was in the form of literary art. The surviving sagas were a fraction of his career products. Snorri received "gift"[4] compensations from the Norwegian royals as a freelance writer. Sometimes the royals "commissioned"[5] writings.
As Dr. Shrieves pointed out a few weeks ago, writings by Christians could have biases against pagans that were their own great-grandparents. To expand on that point, gore and horror is a genre of entertainment, and Snorri's work indeed adds great entertainment value for the promotional materials. I can think of Norwegian Cruise Line promotional videos that exaggerate the comfort and glamour of the vacation packages. But I am also very aware of the true horror of being in a warring society, everyone speaks a regional language, every year can have a coup in the federal government, everyone is a undocumented immigrant traveler because his/her paper is invalidated by the coup of the year, and makeshift burials litter the southern border. The boundary for truth is very blurry and complex. We lose sleep trying to map out reality.
Vafthrudnir
[1] The Viking Age, page 189
[2] The Viking Age, page 156
[3] The Viking Age, page 196
[4] The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock, page 15
[5] The Viking Age, page 58
[6] The Viking Age, page 178
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Thread:
Traveling sword mirrored by current events
Post:
Traveling sword mirrored by current events
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 3, 2022 12:49 PM
Edited Date:
June 3, 2022 5:36 PM
Status:
Published
Age of Vikings of the 11th century is mirrored by Russian forces on the shore of Black Sea in 2022.
Vikings embedded in Rus forces across Black Sea to Constantinople-Istanbul were recruited in the Varangian regiment for Eastern Roman/Byzantine Emperor Alexius I.
The Viking sword Hneitir uncovered in the regiment in Constantinople-Istanbul was handed over to emperor Alexius in army camp under his control.
The Viking forces left rune stone marks of Sigurd in Kiev along the way to Black Sea as reported in the Introduction chapter of The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock, page 6.
Turkey president Erdogan, arranging meetings in Istanbul in 2022, is allying with Russia to support Islamic expansion. Swords have been replaced by missiles in modern warfares, and the S400 defense missiles have been handed over to Istanbul.
Russian forces left artillery marks in Kiev in March 2022 along the way to Black Sea.
Turkey's economy has been in trouble for the past 5 years with something like 150% year-to-year inflation on commodity goods, subjugating the commoners that migrate from interior of Turkey toward Istanbul toward the west.
But president Erdogan, in Istanbul, is expanding Islam economic teachings in Istanbul toward the west, worsening the economy in the process.
Commentators suggesting that Scandinavians distance themselves from Russia is problematic. Scandinavian Vikings joined the Russian regiment with the traveling sword, not running away.
There must be something to be learned from the patterns of history, and NATO military leaders are not supporting Scandinavians to distance themselves from Russians.
This, at least, makes historical sense.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
Migrant crisis at Calais paints the picture of disdain at Normandy
Post:
RE: Migrant crisis at Calais paints the picture of disdain at Normandy
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 10, 2022 11:43 PM
Edited Date:
June 17, 2022 1:32 AM
Status:
Published
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Thread:
Migrant crisis at Calais paints the picture of disdain at Normandy
Post:
Migrant crisis at Calais paints the picture of disdain at Normandy
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 10, 2022 2:00 AM
Edited Date:
June 17, 2022 1:32 AM
Status:
Published
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Thread:
Purpose And Audience Of St. Quentin Narrative
Post:
Purpose And Audience Of St. Quentin Narrative
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 12, 2022 11:59 PM
Edited Date:
June 13, 2022 12:33 AM
Status:
Published
From the headnotes of Dudo's passages, it is obvious that the passages[1][2] are administrative, promotional writings, implicit assignments from his superiors.
The headnotes singled out "historians" disregarding Dudo's writing as true history[1], and the headnotes singled out Dudo's position as a "dean"[1], which is below the rank of "Count" Richard.
As a piece of administration work, the passages would have been viewed by Dudo's superiors, and the audience would have been noble men of the region who were under the administration of Count Richard, the grandson of Viking Rollo.
But, writers know that all humans are readers. Folks wanting order in the huge open space at the Boulogne-Calais port towns was very understandable. St Quentin was the last major city before cargos traversing continental Eurasia can be loaded in the port towns and shipped across the English Channel. The transit liminal spaces are unsettling because cargos are going places with price tags. The large cargo ships have been in the background since antiquity. Clocks are ticking, even though there is no end in sight of the purpose, medieval, or today.
When people experience dissonance between expectation and reality, meaning that barbarians move to next door and become legitimate dukes, people automatically come up with slight twists of reasoning, in this case, "the next door barbarians are not the same as the far away barbarians". This happens across all cultures and simultaneously in the minds of those involved.
The administrative assignment called for reconciliation, to say what’s on people's minds. And reconciliation was achieved by the passages when Dudo was willing to put his name as a historian aside and complete his assignment in time.
[1] The Viking Age, p204
[2] The Viking Age, p268
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Thread:
Divisions of Vikings by politics
Post:
Divisions of Vikings by politics
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 7, 2022 5:45 PM
Edited Date:
June 12, 2022 11:59 PM
Status:
Published
The mannerism of Dudo of Saint Quentin toward people from Scanza(Scandinavia) that migrated toward Black Sea is full of disdain when he wrote "dwell savage and barbarous peoples"[1]. Yet, Dudo's superior, Count Richard I Of Normandy, was the grandson of the famous Viking Rollo. It appears that the political division was very clear and strict. Criticizing the people from Scanza on the east bear no resentment toward the same people from Scanza now on the west coast of Normandy.
One possible division technique is to suggest that Scythia corrupted/diluted the good original Scanza people, as opposed to the Dukes of Normandy as the "pure" descendants of Scanza. It is not said whether such a view subconsciously formed in the Saint Quentin region or Dudo formulated it by himself. The purported corruption/dilution occurs when Dudo calls out the names of 5 other groups of people, Goths, Sarmatians, Amacsobii, Tragoditae, and Alans. There is historical evidence of Scandinavians migration to the shores of Black Sea, including rune stones of Sigurd in Kiev[3] and the traveling sword Hneitir in Istanbul[4]. But Dudo's writing and his views are not scholarly regarded as true history.[2]
Vafthrudnir
Vafthrudnir
[1] The Viking Age, page 205
[2] The Viking Age, page 204
[3] The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock, page 6.
[4] The Viking Age, page 186
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Thread:
Divisions of Vikings by politics
Post:
RE: Divisions of Vikings by politics
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 7, 2022 9:13 PM
Edited Date:
June 8, 2022 1:04 AM
Status:
Published
I learned from Psychology 101 that when people experience dissonance between expectation and reality, meaning that "barbarous people" move to next door and become legitimate duke, neighbors automatically come up with slight twists of reasoning, in this case, "the next door barbarians are not the same as the far away barbarians".
Sometimes, these twists of cognition become politics, for example, when weapon of mass destruction was not found after invasion of Iraq, the twist was "the focus is on the regime that has the potential to create weapon of mass destruction".
I think that Dudo's writing not scholarly regarded as true history is partly due to these twists that dont bear historical facts.
John
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Thread:
Oddly, I View Thorkel As The Hero
Post:
Oddly, I View Thorkel As The Hero
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 19, 2022 9:56 PM
Edited Date:
June 19, 2022 11:34 PM
Status:
Published
It occurs to me as an oddity at first to see Thorkel's background as a traveler to Constantinople-Istanbul and abandoning his native religion for Greek king, who supposedly was an orthodox christian. It would be very hard for a writer that never traveled abroad to portray the character of Thorkel with inner thoughts, stepping outside of his own gains, working for the greater good when he said "Who dares wins."[1]
But consider the length Snorri Sturlusson took to cross the vast sea to Norway for diplomatic missions, I would argue that Snorri and his contemporaries, such as Ari Thorgilsson and the unknown writer of Hrafnkel's saga, valued well-traveled persons with knowledge of the world outside Iceland. And Thorkel could be the subconscious projection of the writer's own value. The writers of Snorri's time were innovators. Vernacular, prose writing was one example.
Likewise, Ari Thorgilsson's Book Of Icelanders's chronology alignment with Chronicle Of Anglo-Saxon regarding Ivar and Halfdan's activities likely did not occur by chance. Ivar and Halfdan's father Ragnar Hairy-Breaches was a legend, a pure creation in sagas. The perfect stitching between facts and fiction likely was hard work aided by technology of the time, namely navigation allowing safer travels to obtain first hand correspondence, and streamlined parchment production that allowed editing and rearrangement before modern practice with computer copy-paste and peer editing techniques.
Iceland was the new world of medieval time, and 12-13th century Icelandic writers were very proud of themselves as explorers, pioneers, discoverers, and even conservators of Scandinavian way of life. Norwegian kings would "gift" Icelandic writers to write[2]. The unknown writer of Hrafnkel's saga was no exception to me. He didn't hold and cling on to the values of older generations to me.
[1] The Saga Of Hrafnkel Frey's Godi, p449
[2] Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock, p. 15
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Thread:
Sam's Motivations
Post:
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 19, 2022 5:42 PM
Edited Date:
June 19, 2022 10:00 PM
Status:
Published
Hi Cody and Samuel, I like this discussion thread :)
I notice that, even though an outlaw's life was not protected by the society, there was no law that required any specific personnel to execute any specific criminal offense. My understanding is that the reason Sam didn't kill Hrafnkel was his calculations of repercussions, including his own popularity as a future godi and Hrafnkel's sons avenging for Hrafnkel. It was a feature of certain societies, where the judicial and executive powers of the government overlapped and depended on each other, meaning that the judgment of a death case is part of the elected official's political maneuver. For example, pardoning Hrafnkel's life could have hypothetically gained a thousand votes for a mayor’s position in modern terms.
The Althing council was established between 950 and 1000 with advancement of technology in the collective consciousness of the Scandinavian people. Navigation was a central technology theme, among others. Iceland had enormous production of "pelts"[1], In Adam Breman's description for animal skins and wool, and the rich resources. The many "small cases", as said by Thorbjorn that Sam used to "eagerly take on"[2], likely were disputes of commodities. So, Sam was a commercial lawyer taking on a district lawyer's criminal case to me.
When Sam served summons to the villagers in Adalbol[3] to prosecute Hrafnkel, the Viking society had likely moved away from rune stone writing, instead using parchment writing for the official documents as summons. It was a very different society from Sigurd's time of the 400s. Stone carving could not possibly be produced fast enough for the population. Parchment was made of sheep skins extensively processed manually, and holding it in hand and reading from it and hearing the swiping sound was an novel experience to be held. But Althing laws were still not written on parchment. Instead, it was recited from memory and oral transmission, announced one third per year by the law speaker, as pointed out by Dr. Shrieves, until 1117. It was a time of change and a time of progress.
[1] The Viking Age, p311
[2] The Saga Of Hrafnkel Frey's Godi, p444
[3] The Saga Of Hrafnkel Frey's Godi, p445
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Thread:
Scientifically why Vikings abandoned Greenland
Post:
Scientifically why Vikings abandoned Greenland
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 17, 2022 2:01 AM
Edited Date:
June 19, 2022 9:16 PM
Status:
Published
Some youtube video says that Cod liver eating was forgotten in the new world. And children developed Rickets.
I am not certain how accurate this view is.
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Thread:
Motive And Audience Of Heimskringla Saga
Post:
Motive And Audience Of Heimskringla Saga
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 26, 2022 11:34 PM
Edited Date:
June 26, 2022 11:53 PM
Status:
Published
Motive And Audience Of Heimskringla Saga
From the headnote of excerpt of Heimskringla Saga in [1], it is obvious that the Kings Saga is promotional material written by friendly diplomat, Snorri Sturlusson to Norway. The exerpt shows the charm of the young king Harald Hard Ruler(Hardrada), his sex appeal to foreign powers, and professional skills, resourceful tatics seemingly defying conventional calculation of power and resource. The audience includes the royals of the very subjects of the saga, the nobles that served the royals, and the ruled commoners.
Norway suffered loss when Harald Hardrada was tragically killed in an attempt to capture England during the power vacuum of England of 1066. The saga brought out the bright light of the young king's earlier success to cope with the Scandinavian loss, and the saga was a famous success of its genre. The saga has unintended value in showcasing the mentality of the era near the end of Viking expansion through the eyes of the king himself. But more importantly, it gives concerned learners in the future a reality check about the consequence of stretching limited resources too thin. Norway did not have enough resources left to win the English throne in 1066 in the west after spending time/money in the east with Harald Hardrada. In John Haywoodd's description, the silver trade largely dried in 965[2], meaning resources became limited. And limited resources could not support unlimited expansion both to the east of central Eurasia and to the west of the British Isle.
[1] The Viking Age, p297
[2] Historical Atlas Of The Vikings, John Haywood, Penguin, p108
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Thread:
"Rus" strikes me as a clever euphemism
Post:
"Rus" strikes me as a clever euphemism
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 26, 2022 3:34 AM
Edited Date:
June 26, 2022 11:45 PM
Status:
Published
Byzantine Emperor Theophilus unknowingly granting passage of Rus, in 839, from Constantinople-Istanbul to Emperor Louis the Pious in France was a result of clever wordplay by the Vikings to me.
Byzantine court had topographers, land surveyors, which gave emperor Constantine VII information to compile De Administrando Imperio of 948-952, which included river name Dnieper, rapid names Essopi Oulvorsi among others, and their inhabitants, such as Chersonites and Pechenegs. Byzantine court was well established many generations before Theophilus, and yet it failed to detect the covert operation of the Vikings when they declared themselves as Rus.
It seems that Vikings had been learning languages from the local Finnish people to know that Rus referred to the Swedish Vikings in the neighborhood of trading post Ladoga, and that the word Rus was not derogatory nor conspicuous. Derogatory words would have stood out. The word was just obscure enough to go under the radar and yet common enough as an everyday maritime/nautical terminology not to raise suspicion.
It doesn't seem to be a coincidence that the Vikings randomly picked a covert code word and it just happened to be suitable for a name of a country of the largest land mass on earth for coming millennia. Maybe Vikings had tried to assimilate into the locals as soon as they arrived in a foreign land by a simple human nature, to learn new languages, to gain social support. Perhaps that’s why, within 3 generations, Oleg’s grandson had a pure local Slavic legal name.
Vafthrudnir
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Thread:
The Varangian Guard, 1066, and the Harald Connection
Post:
RE: The Varangian Guard, 1066, and the Harald Connection
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 26, 2022 9:08 PM
Status:
Published
I see the connection Jessica pointed out now after reading about the 1066 situation.
I think it confirmed my suspicion that Norway did not have enough resource left to win the English throne on the west after spending time/money on the east with Harald Hard-Ruler. It was a disaster for Norway.
I see slang names, inappropriate in this discussion, about William The Conquerer that also confirm that Normandy house merged with locals, similar to Vikings merge into locals on the east.
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Thread:
The Varangian Guard, 1066, and the Harald Connection
Post:
RE: The Varangian Guard, 1066, and the Harald Connection
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
June 26, 2022 4:21 PM
Edited Date:
June 26, 2022 7:12 PM
Status:
Published
My view is different. My preconception is that Normandy area mostly dealt with Norwegian and Danes , and that Kiev area mostly delt with Swedes.
Harald Hard-Ruler appears to be an oddity to me, and Snorri Sturlusson, as a diplomat, composed the Heimskringla saga for promotional purposes for Harald Hard-Ruler, because Norwegian royals did "gift" the Icelandic writer[1].
The flow of Varangian soldiers was mainly Swedes to me, and Norwegians were the last gasp of effort into the east by Norway. Anglo-Saxon in Varangian regiment doesn't appear significant to me.
I am concerned that the Scandinavians power, as a whole, was stretched too thin when they tried to expand both west and east simultaneously, let alone Norway expanding both west and east by itself.
I suspect that Duke Of Normandy house inter-married with Carolingian house, and that, by the time of 1066 Norman conquest, it was just French. But, I am still in the process of reading the 1066 situation because I am researching etymology of new country names, both Rus and Nor.
[1] The Saga of the Volsungs, Penguin ed., Jesse L. Byock. , p15
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Thread:
Science/Technology Matters
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Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
July 3, 2022 11:48 PM
Edited Date:
July 5, 2022 10:24 PM
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It strikes me this week that there was no antibiotics and there was no cure for any sexually transmitted diseases, and hence overly promiscuous sexual behavior must be avoided, among other things, and guarded as the "devil himself" (McDonald 332).
Neurology was non-existant, and soldiers did not know whether brain or the heart or some other parts of the body controls the hand and limbs. To experiment with it, one captured solder asked his peer to watch him holding a pin while he was about to be beheaded by the captor while he set his mind to hold the pin indefinitely. The crude experiment was not recorded on photograph or video, so, there was no knowledge transmission for the experimental result., so the experiment likely was performed repeatedly. The crude experiments likely resulted in high mortality rates, which, in turn, resulted in low population and low advancement in knowledge. It was a viscious cycle that resulted in self-propelled stagnenation.
McDonald, R. Andrew, and Angus A. Somerville. The Viking Age: A Reader. University of Toronto Press, 2020.
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It strikes me that Christian church helped Louis spot Rus covert operation
Post:
It strikes me that Christian church helped Louis spot Rus covert operation
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
July 3, 2022 9:28 AM
Edited Date:
July 3, 2022 10:27 AM
Status:
Published
I have been researching the etymology of Rus and how it deceived the Byzantine court to give Rus pirates passage[1] across the modern-day-Bulgaria corridor to the heartland of Germans.
And after reading the first half of Chapter 12, it appears that French emperor Louis's court had been working with the church regarding Swedish affairs, and actually Louis was the broker between missionary bishops to Sweden. Louis likely needed a very good understanding of Swedish believers and nonbelievers .
And so, I reason that Louis's court could easily spot, "suspect"[1], the covert operation of the vikings that used the euphemism "Rus".
Chapter 12 does not mention Byzantine church interaction with Swedish people. So, the Byzantine Constantinople-Istanbul court was likely in the dark. The Byzantine court had topographers survey the land close to modern day Estonia, but topographers did not engage with people like bishops. The pirates were smart enough to teach themselves a foreign language(Finnish), but the churches were on top of them, and the emperors were on top of the churches.
But, still, it is admirable for Louis's court if they learned some Finnish beforehand.
[1] The Viking Age, page 277
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Thread:
1930s' (not very reliable) psychology taking on mythology
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1930s' (not very reliable) psychology taking on mythology
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
July 9, 2022 3:58 PM
Edited Date:
July 9, 2022 4:32 PM
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Published
Very surprised today to see the psychology 101 class's respected old time psychologist Carl Jung in chapter 15 of The Viking Age[1]. Wotan is the alternative spelling of Odin.
Carl Jung is usually considered the second iteration of Sigmund Freud. But there have been many iterations after that.
Carl Jung is famous for the archetype psychology that discusses why humans of all origins have dragon in their mythology. That point alone was not explained by Sigmund Freud.
Carl Jung's theory is considered neo-Freudianism from my memory of the course.
More modern psychology usually measures quantitative data from research participants and make statistical inferences, discussion if a person's choice of action is correlated to some small rewards and how small steps of change can accumulate to larger effects, just like other sciences.
And the latest psychology takes a lot of data from browser clicks of users with facebook and other sites alike. It is very different from the 1930s psychology.
[1] The Viking Age, p488
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Thread:
"shameful(it's not) episode" strikes me as funny
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"shameful(it's not) episode" strikes me as funny
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
July 9, 2022 12:35 PM
Status:
Published
When Ireland's National Museum's excavation team found out that Irish themselves had Viking cultural heritage, they tried to explained away the archeological evidence by the mindset "it’s not ours: it’s foreign"[1].
It turned out that the Viking cultural heritage boosted Dublin's tourism economy tremendously. I learned from Psychology 101 that when people experience cognitive desonance, meaning their believe of being victims of Vikings turned out to be false, people conveniently explain away the problem by adding twists to the fact. In this case, the twist would be "it's foreign".
However, I believe that some Irish knew that Scandinavians integrated into them before the archeological evidence was found.
[1] The Viking Age, p498
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Thread:
Why the years 1000 to 1200 were marked as the ending of Viking Age
Post:
Why the years 1000 to 1200 were marked as the ending of Viking Age
Author:
John Gibson
Posted Date:
July 7, 2022 2:28 AM
Edited Date:
July 9, 2022 3:46 AM
Status:
Published
From the literary perspective, in Heimskringla Saga, after King Harald Hardradi was killed, 2 more grueling battles were depicted, resulting in near complete destruction of the fleet recruited to England shores.
When I looked up 3 other war depictions by different authors, battles all stopped soon after the king was killed.
- When Irish High King Brian Boru was killed, the battle was won already, and the army was just pursuing the fleeing enemy [1].
- When Danish King Hrolf was killed, he and his close champions were the only ones still fighting, all others dead [2]. So, the king's death was near the end of the battle.
- In Egil's saga, after King Arnvid and King Audbjorn(opponents of king Harald Finehair) were killed, Solvi Cleaver "escaped", implying that no fighting-to-the-last-soldier took place [3].
It appears that Snorri Sturlusson's depiction of the year 1066 hinted that this war was different by prolonging the war to signal the greater loss.
And a great loss may produce the sentiment for reconciliation.
[1] The Viking Age, p455
[2] The Viking Age, p179
[3] The Viking Age, p31
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